non rover owner's

[Punx0r]

Jon's doing a fine job here but there's a couple of points I'd like to address.

* Overpriced and not as good as the competition when new.
* Cheap and unwanted as a second hand vehicle (supply and demand Jon, prices stay high if demand is there! Demand is market driven, people will buy good products!)
* Poor image in terms of styling, branding and reliability.
* Same outdated line-up with a few bits of extra plastic glued on every now and again.
* Poor model line-up.
* Manufacturing an already over-priced model at a LOSS.

With the exception of the last one (which I'm intrigued about, surely not the MGSV being given as an example?) all those can be countered with: but they sold millions of cars, and the second hand has always been healthy. Secondhand Rovers were priced similarly to secondhand versions of their contemporary competitors. Or at least so my observations of autotrader etc have lead me to believe.

If I cannot hold an opinion that they weren't financially viable without the information then how are you qualified to say that they were?

I use words like "probably", "possibly" and "likely" to differentiate fact from merely my opinion. You seem unaware of such a distinction

Sorry, by all means find me a 2010 Rover I can compare it to? Hmmm...

The whole debate here is about sales performance and comparison with competing marques in the past. If you can't remember what cars were like at the time then how can you be qualified to comment?

I do remember what competitors cars were like and I think I can say with confidence that a Rover model was generally nicer than it's competitor from Vauxhall, Ford etc. They were more expensive, but how many astras had full leather interior, aircon, electric windows & mirrors, ABS as standard etc?

Comparing a 1995 average car to a 2010 one is just stupid. You might as well say the Comet or Spitfire were logger because the A380 and Eurofighter are better.

[Null_Byte]

Well you could say I have a vested interest yes

But rover bashing in an anti rover bashing thread on a rover forum was pretty much guaranteed get a response.

The mk2/mk1 thing doesn't bother me, I used to be a bit of a mk2 fan years ago and must admit to thinking it was the mk2 destined for the SA market but fair play in pointing it out.

By no means do I think Rovers were perfect, they weren’t. The post project drive stuff was terrible, but I was going to wait for you to bring that one up before conceding that

On the whole though the product was good and very enduring (there isn't many marques that can boast over a dozen online communities, let alone 5 years after they ceased trading) , if the company had been managed differently, organised differently, funded differently who knows what would have rolled out of longbridge by now.

What eats me, is we will never know. We will never ever have a domestic mass producing car company ever again. All those skills, knowledge, history has been wiped out by greed and fecklessness, and that does get me hot under the collar.

Wayne, I fully admit that I don't know anything about Football (and I said that on the other thread), but as far as I am concerned, the points I were trying to make didn't require any knowledge of football! Anyway that thread isn't this one.

You will find much bigger Rover geeks than me, but it is my passion, and while I will accept justified criticism of MGRover (I'm not totally stuck up my own as$) an awful lot of people do bash them for no good reason. Strangely when you ask them to be specific as to why, they generally don't put up much of a good argument.

[Limecat]

Jon's doing a fine job here but there's a couple of points I'd like to address.

* Overpriced and not as good as the competition when new.
* Cheap and unwanted as a second hand vehicle (supply and demand Jon, prices stay high if demand is there! Demand is market driven, people will buy good products!)
* Poor image in terms of styling, branding and reliability.
* Same outdated line-up with a few bits of extra plastic glued on every now and again.
* Poor model line-up.
* Manufacturing an already over-priced model at a LOSS.

With the exception of the last one (which I'm intrigued about, surely not the MGSV being given as an example?) all those can be countered with: but they sold millions of cars, and the second hand has always been healthy. Secondhand Rovers were priced similarly to secondhand versions of their contemporary competitors. Or at least so my observations of autotrader etc have lead me to believe.

If I cannot hold an opinion that they weren't financially viable without the information then how are you qualified to say that they were?

I use words like "probably", "possibly" and "likely" to differentiate fact from merely my opinion. You seem unaware of such a distinction

Sorry, by all means find me a 2010 Rover I can compare it to? Hmmm...

The whole debate here is about sales performance and comparison with competing marques in the past. If you can't remember what cars were like at the time then how can you be qualified to comment?

I do remember what competitors cars were like and I think I can say with confidence that a Rover model was generally nicer than it's competitor from Vauxhall, Ford etc. They were more expensive, but how many astras had full leather interior, aircon, electric windows & mirrors, ABS as standard etc?

Comparing a 1995 average car to a 2010 one is just stupid. You might as well say the Comet or Spitfire were logger because the A380 and Eurofighter are better.

That's short enough for me to reply to. I will take your last point first, I am a qualified Aeronutical Engineer, via BAE as it happens.

They may have sold millions of cars during the duration as a company but not during the period I am talking about. Hell, those Yam Yams must have been working 24/7? Statistical analysis; you are using it in the wrong way.

'Quite how you can argue one way or another that MGR wasn't financially viable over the medium-long term given proper management and investment is beyond me. There must only be a handful of people in the world who have the knowledge and access to the finanical information required to make that call.'

Funnily enough in that above quote by yourself, you didn't use any of the words you mentioned? "probably", "possibly" or "likely".

As a matter of interest Punxor, how old are you as I 'cannot remember cars of the past' despite owning a 20 year old R5 Turbo, a 16 year old Metro, a 16 year old Corsa and an 8 year old Subaru?

I hate to upset you but going back about 18 months I was 30 and living with my Dad if you listen to some spastics in the Rover World.

[Limecat]

Well you could say I have a vested interest yes

But rover bashing in an anti rover bashing thread on a rover forum was pretty much guaranteed get a response.

The mk2/mk1 thing doesn't bother me, I used to be a bit of a mk2 fan years ago and must admit to thinking it was the mk2 destined for the SA market but fair play in pointing it out.

By no means do I think Rovers were perfect, they weren’t. The post project drive stuff was terrible, but I was going to wait for you to bring that one up before conceding that

On the whole though the product was good and very enduring (there isn't many marques that can boast over a dozen online communities, let alone 5 years after they ceased trading) , if the company had been managed differently, organised differently, funded differently who knows what would have rolled out of longbridge by now.

What eats me, is we will never know. We will never ever have a domestic mass producing car company ever again. All those skills, knowledge, history has been wiped out by greed and fecklessness, and that does get me hot under the collar.

Wayne, I fully admit that I don't know anything about Football (and I said that on the other thread), but as far as I am concerned, the points I were trying to make didn't require any knowledge of football! Anyway that thread isn't this one.

You will find much bigger Rover geeks than me, but it is my passion, and while I will accept justified criticism of MGRover (I'm not totally stuck up my own as$) an awful lot of people do bash them for no good reason. Strangely when you ask them to be specific as to why, they generally don't put up much of a good argument.

Jon, we will have to agree to disagree.

My parents owned numerous new Rovers as a result of a great employee scheme via BAE. We will not agree on this subject, I will admit that. However, you pull me up as if I am a hater who was glad of their demise, that wasn't the case. I will not cry for them not being here anymore admittedly but I am NOT a hater, I am just honest with MY opinions as I see it.

You really are looking at the glass as being half empty. You have gone on as if skills are lost etc? There are car manufacturers in this country employing people with those skills so how are they lost?

I can name you about 20+ Vauxhall ones if that's any help?

You seem to take it as if I am out to murder the name? I am not, but I am not here to big up something that was never that great in MY opinion.

I own one, I chuck money at it.

[Punx0r]

I will take your last point first, I am a qualified Aeronutical Engineer, via BAE as it happens.

You took my point but forgot to comment on it

They may have sold millions of cars during the duration as a company but not during the period I am talking about.

What period are you talking about? I suspect it may be a different one to everyone else in this thread! By "millions" I mean over the life of the last model ranges: the 200/400, 600, 800, 75, metro, MGF - the car's we're discussing...

Funnily enough in that above quote by yourself, you didn't use any of the words you mentioned? "probably", "possibly" or "likely". [LOL!]

Quote plz where I said MGR as it stood was "definitely" or "absolutely" viable in the short-term as it stood.

As a matter of interest Punxor, how old are you as I 'cannot remember cars of the past' despite owning a 20 year old R5 Turbo, a 16 year old Metro, a 16 year old Corsa and an 8 year old Subaru?

Old enough that when I first started buying cars I was looking at late 80's early 90's offerings from all the major manufacturers. Before ending up with a Ford I very nearly ended up with a Nissan bluebird or a 200/400 (shame, I had no knowledge of them at the time).

Buying an old car now isn't the same thing as being aware of the secondhand market at the time in question. By your age though you should have been

I hate to upset you but going back about 18 months I was 30 and living with my Dad if you listen to some spastics in the Rover World.

Perhaps you could explain this in the morning when you are sober? Because it doesn't make a bit of sense to me!

Your (and Munky's) computer needs an breathalyser interlock...

[Limecat]

I will take your last point first, I am a qualified Aeronutical Engineer, via BAE as it happens.

You took my point but forgot to comment on it

They may have sold millions of cars during the duration as a company but not during the period I am talking about.

What period are you talking about? I suspect it may be a different one to everyone else in this thread! By "millions" I mean over the life of the last model ranges: the 200/400, 600, 800, 75, metro, MGF - the car's we're discussing...

Funnily enough in that above quote by yourself, you didn't use any of the words you mentioned? "probably", "possibly" or "likely". [LOL!]

Quote plz where I said MGR as it stood was "definitely" or "absolutely" viable in the short-term as it stood.

As a matter of interest Punxor, how old are you as I 'cannot remember cars of the past' despite owning a 20 year old R5 Turbo, a 16 year old Metro, a 16 year old Corsa and an 8 year old Subaru?

Old enough that when I first started buying cars I was looking at late 80's early 90's offerings from all the major manufacturers. Before ending up with a Ford I very nearly ended up with a Nissan bluebird or a 200/400 (shame, I had no knowledge of them at the time).

Buying an old car now isn't the same thing as being aware of the secondhand market at the time in question. By your age though you should have been

I hate to upset you but going back about 18 months I was 30 and living with my Dad if you listen to some spastics in the Rover World.

Perhaps you could explain this in the morning when you are sober? Because it doesn't make a bit of sense to me!

Your (and Munky's) computer needs an breathalyser interlock...

Punxor, I didn't comment on spitfires as TBH I have no knowledge of them. I have worked on a Vulcan though if that is any help, although I was an apprentice? XM603 IIRC?

They didn't sell 'millions' of cars over the models you mention at a guess.

You say for me to quote you on the financial ability of a company in a short term basis, I brought the question back to you earlier when you said I wasn't in the position to comment without facts on their medium to long term future without facts and figures, just as you weren't in the position to say they were a viable concern.

My first car was a Mini at 17, I also owned a Nova GTE and a Renault 5 turbo. That was 12 years ago. Strangely Punxor, they were all second hand cars.

The last comment was in reference to some muppet off another 'Rover' forum (well a BL forum TBH) that thought they knew everything about me and one of them, not sure who, phoned up my Mother at a different house being an abusive drunk down the phone. Almost funny that they took the Internet that seriously but for the fact she was going through cancer treatment at the time, all because they couldn't make me bite.

I have had a few but I admit it, I am not being abusive and I am more than capable of typing out a response.

[noodles-zs]

The last comment was in reference to some muppet off another 'Rover' forum (well a BL forum TBH) that thought they knew everything about me and one of them, not sure who, phoned up my Mother at a different house being an abusive drunk down the phone. Almost funny that they took the Internet that seriously but for the fact she was going through cancer treatment at the time, all because they couldn't make me bite.

don't lie, i bet you still live with your mum and have football bedsheets!

if i phone your mum will you go away to another forum....?

[Limecat]

The last comment was in reference to some muppet off another 'Rover' forum (well a BL forum TBH) that thought they knew everything about me and one of them, not sure who, phoned up my Mother at a different house being an abusive drunk down the phone. Almost funny that they took the Internet that seriously but for the fact she was going through cancer treatment at the time, all because they couldn't make me bite.

don't lie, i bet you still live with your mum and have football bedsheets!

if i phone your mum will you go away to another forum....?

I did move back home, you may have missed the part about cancer? I am a complete arsehole on the Internet but you don't turn your back on your own. I live in Adswood fella, my mother lives in Hazel Grove. I can give you the postcode if you are that fussed? I'm not arsed about a few keyboard warriors turning up at my door, I do like a laugh afterall.

I do have football bedsheets though, they were custom made with the Oldham flag on them by my mates Girlfriend as a Birthday present. I also have some green silk ones too - they cost me a pretty penny they did.

[noodles-zs]

i didn't miss it! did you want people to break out the violins for you? sorry but this is NOT the X Factor

anyways I'm not a keyboard warrior but i do think you are! you admit that you are an arsehole on the Internet, why?

what is the point trolling about rovers on a rover forum? i think most of the thing you have said have come strait out your arse anyways!

i work on cars everyday of my life, i work on some very nice ones and some utter logger ones! but i would rather work on rovers all day than say peugeot or renault, back to you talking out your arse, the fact is most mechanics wont knock rovers as bad as you do. yes the k CAN suffer from HGF and the T does leak a little oil, i could sit here all day and type known problems for every other manufacturer

take BMW for an example, there little swirl flap problem! we had a 320 in last week that swallowed one, not very pretty and iv seen three before that.

so why don't you stop being an arse and spend more time pumping your girlfriend on you expensive green silk sheets and less time being a fanny on here!

[Din]

I think thats enough tbh fellas.