Drum brakes - whats the point, honestly?

Post by **Fordimus Prime** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:33 pm

rant/

Whoever invented them, needs a kick inthe balls. They're awful, why are they still made?

The little Corsa I bought for work, has failed mot, for the 2nd year running, on one of its rear brakes.

Discs brakes are just such a simpler, more efficent design. Drums are rubbish and has lots of stupid tiny springs and parts- surely they cant be cheaper to make.

Grrr. Going to have to get garage to sort it- i dont have time, and its rainy and cold in my driveway.

Bought the damn thing to try and save money too. Damn.

/rant

Post by **Punx0r** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:45 pm

I think they are cheaper - hence why they've remained on the rears of many cheap cars.

They're pretty good at what they do, and IIRC you get more braking force for less effort compared to discs.

They can be fiddly though

But then how often do you mess with drums? I only have once, but our dad's don't think twice about them because they can remember when cars had them on the front!

talkingcars · Post by **talkingcars** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:28 pm

They last longer.

darwin · Post by **darwin** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:10 pm

Handbrake works better with drums . The last 2 cars I've had (both with discs on the back) have failed the MoT on handbrake . Never had a car with drums on the back fail on handbrake . In saying that I prefer discs on the back , mainly because they look better .

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:53 pm

Disk brakes tend to have more problems too.. ie sticking calipers or worn seals. Drums don't tend to break so much in my experience.

618ireland · Post by **618ireland** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:21 pm

Bought my 214SEi when she was 6 at 39K miles, put 100K miles more on her. Drums, shoes never needed attention. Also when I worked in a factors the Kadett E were the only drums that we ever sold much of.

Post by **Fordimus Prime** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:33 pm

meh - then you're all lucky!

or maybe im cursed?

Every drum ive gone near has ended up going wrong. At my old work, one of out van's threw a show in the drum, and you couldnt get drum off- Ford refused to fix it as it was 'too hard', so we did it ourselves.

Girlfriends old saxo- spend a horrible rainy night replacing the shoes to get it through mot. lots of fiddley little springs.

At lest with discs brakes its simple- if they're not working, take off caliper, fit new caliper. done. None of this springs and clips, and levers etc.

Drums are satan's brakes

618ireland · Post by **618ireland** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:46 pm

Think you have been unlucky, although you could rationalise as follows

- Ford are logger
- Corsa drum setup is similar to Kadett E setup
- 106s and Sazo s were known for drum problems (used to seize up all of a sudden)

Post by **Punx0r** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:15 pm

I must admit discs are simplier and easier to work on - two bolts and the caliper is off.

shellis · Post by **shellis** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:20 pm

totally agree my saxo drums locked up on me and only under normal use, siezed the handbrake on minutes before a journey to leeds, awesome had to play with the handbrake round a few corners to get it off, did the clutch no favours! always had trouble with my drums! pants set up bang some discs on and you're away can't beat the big shiney circles in my opinion!

paul888 · Post by **paul888** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:17 pm

Citroen and peugeot rear drums are an absolute bloody nightmare to work on there's a little clip on the automatic adjusters that flies off and you never find it if you do impossible to put back .Vauxhall drums are pretty good to work on imo.

Drums better for handbraking (evasive driving etc) .

E_T_V · Post by **E_T_V** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:33 pm

Drums in general last a LOT longer and require a LOT less maintainance.
They also give adequate braking (for rear brakes in most cars anyway), and give a much better handbrake.

All of my maestros have still had their original shoes and split pins in place even at some crazy high milages (180k on my car and 230k on my van).

victor3 · Post by **victor3** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:46 pm

Ditto. All I do is every few months pop off the drums and blow out the dust.

shen · Post by **shen** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:56 pm

Drums last longer... there only main flaw is that they heat up alot quicker.
I've had seized drums before..a right pain in the bum

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:16 pm

Sheaf wrote:Disk brakes tend to have more problems too.. ie sticking calipers or worn seals. Drums don't tend to break so much in my experience.

SO much for that theory.

Been having issues with the brakes on Katie's saxo for the last few weeks.... the hand brake would sometimes feel normal and sometimes would need to be pulled on stupidly high before getting much resistance.

It then started a habit of having a strange clucking sound the first time I brakes after being parked up. The clunk was followed by a wierd sudden braking force.

Then, the other day I went to brake and the pedal went to the floor. Not cool. Tried pumping and eventually got it to work, after it'd clunked. Was fine foe the rest of the jounrney. Very disconcerting tho.

So, I started investigations.... seemed fairly obvious it was rear drum related. Drivers side looked fine so opened up the passenger side drum to find this:

The cylinder leaked, getting fluid all over the trailing shoe, which caused the friction material to come completely off. Clearly the material was moving about th drum, altering the handbrake bite point and causing the clunking. Plus the leak caused lack of pedal pressure and air to get in.

Bit annoying really as one seal failing now means we need to get new shoes for both sides, new hub nuts (they're both staked/mangled on both sides) and really need 2 new cylinders. I could replace one cylinder but it seems a bit silly as it's likely the other side will fail sometime soon if that one went and if it does it'll be yet another set of shoes. Best to replace both sides now and prevent way more hassle down the line.

Luckily citroen prices are cheap so it'll all come in at about £120, plus the drums did come apart very easily. Still, I agree, drums are a pain.

Null_Byte · Post by **Null_Byte** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:04 pm

I'd have to disagree - drum brakes are great, you would be supprised at how effective they are, My landie has drums all the way round and I can lock up a set of knobly offroad tyres with no brake servo either.

They are normally very reliable, and last ages compared to discs - the big problem is that once you get them hot they lose most of their effectiveness

Post by **Punx0r** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:23 am

£120 for two wheel cylinders, a set of shoes and couple of driveshaft nuts? I'd try a non-dealer source of parts as that sounds pricey.

In fact, brakeparts.co.uk: shoes £11-£15 (axle set) depending on model, wheel cylinders £10-£14 each depending on model. You may have to go to Shitroen for the nuts, or sand a little off the bottom of the old ones to move the staking point.

If the cause of your leaky wheel cylinder is dirty fluid then its hardly the drum's fault

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:04 am

Nice one...

For some reason I had it in my head that the cylinders were dealer only... @ £47 each. Obviously they're not!

The nuts are however, but they'll be cheap.

Should now be £44.55 + nuts + brake fluid.

Much better

Just hope the bits get here tomorrow as I need to get the car up and running asap.

Null_Byte · Post by **Null_Byte** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:58 am

I don't want to rub it in, but LR wheel cyls are £5.75 each, shoes are about £18 per axle set.

Oh...actually I did want to rub it in

Have to do them on the corsa soon - I imagine that won't be cheap

Post by **Punx0r** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:16 pm

You're the only person I've ever heard promote all-round drums! Usually they come up when someone starts talking about the "bad old days" of motoring

Null_Byte · Post by **Null_Byte** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:15 pm

That's nearly always because they are badly adjusted - they arn't a set and forget thing like discs. You have to keep on top of them and keep them adjusted otherwise they won't be any good.

To truely experience the magic of drums you should see a fully laden fuel tanker stop from about 50mph when the airbrakes fail.

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:28 pm

I've seen a HGV cab pull away from the trailer forgetting to disconnect the air supplies before. Was quite funny, seemed to stop instantaneously. Was only doing about 10mph mind (whatever he could get to before the air lines broke).

Total cost is just under £58 for the fix, hurrah, under half the cost of the dealer kit which is apparently a great deal!

2 Cyls and all shoes - £43.xx (delivered to work is cheaper for some reason)
2 nuts = £4.08+vat
1 litre of brake fluid - £9

It just seems awesomely cheap. I've obviously got too used to the price of Honda bits. Would have been about £300 or so, lol.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:38 pm

tbh, from my experience, the handbrake always feels better on cars with drums, and, it might even work when you pull it

bit fiddly putting it back together, but no more fiddly than trying to wind in the piston without a suitable winding thingymajig...

requestingaflyby · Post by **requestingaflyby** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:53 pm

drums are loads better for handbrake turns! not that i do that sort of thing!

Post by **Punx0r** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:13 pm

Yeah, drums do give good braking effort for a small amount of force as the shoe is pulled into the drum as it rotates (apparently single leading edge drums are extrememly ineffective when the car is going backwards).

With a handbrake the brakes also become tighter as the drum cools (contracts onto the shoes) whereas discs get looser (disc contracts away from the pads).

munky · Post by **munky** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:23 am

drums work better for initiating drifts....

That is all.

Oh and the reason yours have failed mot's is because its a vauxhall... everything vauxhall have ever made is a big fat pile of poo (except the lotus carlton and the monaro, but lets face it, they didnt actually make either of them)

Mr_James · Post by **Mr_James** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:52 pm

munky wrote:drums work better for initiating drifts....

That is all.

Or just do a little modifying and put in a hydraulic controlled handbrake

618ireland · Post by **618ireland** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:36 pm

munky wrote: Oh and the reason yours have failed mot's is because its a vauxhall... everything vauxhall have ever made is a big fat pile of poo

Would like to think you left out a smiley or two there tbh

bgunn · Post by **bgunn** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:08 pm

munky wrote:drums work better for initiating drifts....

That is all.

You drive a BMW - they have a small mechanical drum brake for the handbrake, and they're excellent (until they wear!). The 75/ZT has the same too..

Brian.

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:54 pm

Argh.. fecking drum brakes!

Just spend the evening wrestling with them.

Had to drill out both the M6 bolts holding on the passenger side cylinder (and drop the exhaust to get to the back), then cut off the brake pipe in the end as everything has bloody rusted up and refuses to come undone.

Will get a new brake pipe tomorrow and refit, then I'll have the other side to do. FFS.

I'd imagine if they're not rusted to hell they're fine to work on, but if they're rusty, they're bloody awkward!

Post by **Fordimus Prime** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:17 pm

Sheaf wrote:Argh.. fecking drum brakes!

Just spend the evening wrestling with them.

finally, someone who agrees!

So in conclusion- they overheat quicker, have more fiddley moving parts to go wrong, and are an arse to work on.

So why do they still exist again?!?

Now the drums are sorted on my corsa, it feels like a different car. But i'd still prefer it to have discs all round

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:38 pm

To be fair, the mechanism is fine, sure it's fidley, but it's not rocket science. However because everything is smaller (in this case it takes 11mm spanners and 5mm allen keys) then it's pretty much impossible to remove anything with any rust without completely rounding the bugger.

If it was a straight shoe change it'd have been a piece of pee tho.

Post by **Fordimus Prime** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:44 pm

what car you working on? Surely the type R doesnt have drums?

Post by **Punx0r** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:04 am

bgunn wrote: You drive a BMW - they have a small mechanical drum brake for the handbrake, and they're excellent (until they wear!). The 75/ZT has the same too..

Which on the 75/ZT at least are a pain in the arris! More fiddly than regular drums and less much effective than than discs once I'd fitted some new shoes.

Vard66 · Post by **Vard66** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:40 am

Scott wrote:tbh, from my experience, the handbrake always feels better on cars with drums, and, it might even work when you pull it

bit fiddly putting it back together, but no more fiddly than trying to wind in the piston without a suitable winding thingymajig...

... like a big long flat screwdriver...? Or your hand, amid lots of screaming and blood? Be a man, suck it up!

Rovertech 2.0

Drum brakes - whats the point, honestly?

Drum brakes - whats the point, honestly?

hmm